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08/10/2008, 12:33 AM YankeeCanary Joined on 23/12/2003 New Jersey, USA Posts 2,770 Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance Yes, this is a forum for NCFC, however, what is going on in world financial markets currently has the potential to impact highly leveraged football clubs in England ( particularly Premiership members ) in such a way that the Norwich ability to manage its debt may pale into insignificance in comparison. The comments by FA Chairman Lord Triesman spoke to the estimated 3 billion debt currently outstanding within English football clubs. I don't know what the total debt is of the non-Premiership teams but, at an absolute guess, one would be hard pressed to believe that it anything more than 25% of that total. This would mean that the huge amount that is the remainder is generally spread across the Premiership clubs. You can do the maths as well as I can. It averages over 100 million per club, although the last reported estimate was that the top four clubs accounted for 950 million. This would still mean the remainder would average over 80 million each.  With the financial markets imploding around the world and cash liquidity drying up it is no surprise to hear this kind of reaction from Lord Triesman. He states that the "toxic" debt load being carried by English football clubs is a greater risk and more frail than at any time in history. He further stated that the only way the high transfer fees and salaries have been sustained up to now is due to the revenue from broadcast rights    The way some posters express their viewpoint on this site suggests they think that football is a passion more important than life itself. Such posters may, in the coming few years, encounter some hard reminders confirming that not to be the case. Further, if the current financial crisis escalates, there may be surgery conducted across the world of English football clubs that is unprecedented.    Report

08/10/2008, 7:01 AM Bobert Joined on 31/07/2004 Perth, Western Australia Posts 255 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance Well YankeeCanary I don't see it that way.  There is no point in calling in a debt if it cannot be paid or if the underlying asset is worthless. The only use for a football ground is for building and who wants to build houses or flats in this difficult time and in any case it is doubtful if the City Councils would give planning permission for such a use of the "open" spaces. There well may be an exit of some of the foriegn players from the UK but it is doubtful they will do any better in other countries so on the whole I think the majority will stay and join the 4,000 (Yes 4,000) new imigrants a day who are flooding into the UK. As long at one can buy a ball, or a pigs bladder, young men and boys will always play football and others will always turn up to watch. Some games that need expensive kit may go to the wall but football, as we know it in England, will always be played in the streets, in the fields, on pieces of waste ground and TV with their hours to fill will always be there with the cameras.     Deus spes nostra    Report

08/10/2008, 8:26 AM Yellow Rider Joined on 29/08/2004 Long Stratton Posts 626 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  Bobert wrote: Well YankeeCanary I don't see it that way.  There is no point in calling in a debt if it cannot be paid or if the underlying asset is worthless. The only use for a football ground is for building and who wants to build houses or flats in this difficult time and in any case it is doubtful if the City Councils would give planning permission for such a use of the "open" spaces. There well may be an exit of some of the foriegn players from the UK but it is doubtful they will do any better in other countries so on the whole I think the majority will stay and join the 4,000 (Yes 4,000) new imigrants a day who are flooding into the UK. As long at one can buy a ball, or a pigs bladder, young men and boys will always play football and others will always turn up to watch. Some games that need expensive kit may go to the wall but football, as we know it in England, will always be played in the streets, in the fields, on pieces of waste ground and TV with their hours to fill will always be there with the cameras.     True - but the big owners can start by simply scaling back on the amount they pump into just keeping these clubs afloat. One day the penny will drop in that only four clubs can get to The Champions League with the rest (clubs like West Ham for instance) realising that the £M's they have paid in originally to buy the club has got them absolutely nowhere by way of investment return. They will then withdraw their money and move on to the next 'toy'. Yankee is right in his assesement IMO. I have said for years now that the football gravy train of TV money will implode at sometime and leave many clubs badly scarred and totally unable to carry on the current extraordinary lavish lifestyles. Scudamore insists that 'it will never stop increasing' (the size of Premier League TV deals), what an absolute fool he is. Sounds just like all those blinkered souls who mortaged up to the hilt and thought the same about property! That is why I for one do not necessarily welcome PC or similar to come charging to our rescue. Why? Fans will simply see that as justification for us to join this mad rush for the golden land of The Premier and will want £M's lavished on wages and transfer fees. To survive longer term NCFC need to focus on slashing expenditure to match total income and get back to basics. That means making the Academy and the youth system No.1 priority and also go back to scouring lower leagues and / or fringe players at Premiership clubs. We've done it before - yes the game has changed hugely in financial terms since then but the wheel will turn back again and we need to be positioning the club in advance of that.            Report

08/10/2008, 9:22 AM Shack Attack Joined on 11/08/2005 Making a fool of Terry Butcher Posts 1,724 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance Does anyone know when negotiations are due to start for the next TV deal? It will be interesting to see how much Sky will be willing to pay if people start cancelling their subscriptions due to the economic downturn we may experience over the next two to three years. I do wonder if we may have missed the boat in terms of bringing in a rich investor. The multi billionaires, such as those who took control at Manchester City, will still be interested because for them it's all about power and prestige rather than making money. But I do wonder whether the Mike Ashleys, Marcus Evans' and, dare I say it, Peter Cullums of this world will still be looking into investing in a football club.  Bobert wrote: There well may be an exit of some of the foriegn players from the UK but it is doubtful they will do any better in other countries so on the whole I think the majority will stay and join the 4,000 (Yes 4,000) new imigrants a day who are flooding into the UK. I don't want an argument or to derail this thread, but can I ask where this statistic comes from and whether it is net of those leaving the UK. Cheers. "The ball is round. The game lasts ninety minutes. This much is fact. Everything else is pure theory."    Report

08/10/2008, 9:29 AM Gorleston Jim Joined on 26/08/2004 Gorleston Posts 1,767 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance Football in general is very vunerable and most likely to feel the backlash of the current financial problems. Footballers' wages and agents' commission are the biggest expenditure for most clubs, in fact they mirror the problematic housing market insomuch as house prices kept rising beyond the affordability of the general public, this was of course unsustainable but few would accept it as being so, now of course the bubble has burst ! Now with football clubs' outgoings more than the gate revenue by the aforesaid players/agents continually creaming off ever more and more the football bubble will also burst. Furthermore watching football whether live or by TV is a luxury expenditure and the pennies now poured into them will be siphoned off to pay for rising fuel costs and increased cost of living expenses. Sky subscriptions will undoubtedly fall and their input to the game will be reduced. Those clubs operated prudently and with sensible wage structures will be the ones that emerge from all of this best for sure !     The present cannot be revealed to people until it has become yesterday.    Report

08/10/2008, 9:47 AM whoareyou? Joined on 10/06/2004 Posts 951 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance No one will come out of the current economic financial disaster scot free. The bigger the debt the harder they will fall. Everyone in future will find credit harder to come by and more expensive whether it be mortgages, cars, football clubs... The trouble with big business is that it borrows in the short term assuming that it will be able to renegotiate that debt when it comes up for renewal....a bit like taking out a fixed term, interest repayment-only mortgage on a house. However, the only way banks can lend in the short term is to get people back to saving in banks so the banks can then lend it on to others and they will be looking for repayment of that loan rather than just paying the interest only off. Banks and governments have been doing exactly what they tell us not to do...living outside their means. And football clubs are the worst offenders of this. There was an article on Portsmouth in the papers last week where they reckon they are £60million in debt and need to repay some of it ASAP. Their total income in a season is £65 million of which £60 million is spent on wages alone...there is no way that is sustainable in the medium term. I'd be very surprised if one club somewhere in the UK doesn't go bust by the end of the season!        Report

08/10/2008, 10:17 AM National express super guard Joined on 02/08/2007 Naaarwich Posts 1,104 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. city til I die. Now there's a case for euthanasia    Report

08/10/2008, 10:24 AM SNAP Joined on 11/07/2008 Posts 22 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  Yellow Rider wrote: That is why I for one do not necessarily welcome PC or similar to come charging to our rescue. Why? Fans will simply see that as justification for us to join this mad rush for the golden land of The Premier and will want £M's lavished on wages and transfer fees. To survive longer term NCFC need to focus on slashing expenditure to match total income and get back to basics. That means making the Academy and the youth system No.1 priority and also go back to scouring lower leagues and / or fringe players at Premiership clubs. We've done it before - yes the game has changed hugely in financial terms since then but the wheel will turn back again and we need to be positioning the club in advance of that.         How true this is....I for one, and as a supporter going back to the early '60s, would no more wish to see our club struggling in the middle of the Premiership living above its means and getting further and futher in debt as we get increaingly frustrated by the defeats against the lower tier of the league preventing us getting just that little bit closer to the new promised land of Champions League. Interestingly even UEFA Cup football is now viewed in many circles as a poisoned chalice. How long before teams start to put out a "Carling Cup strength" side for such games. I see the best contribution that Peter Cullum or anyone else can have is to put the club on a stable financial footing which means we are no longer counting the beans at the end of each month to see if the doors can be kept open. From that point we can start to build from the roots of the Academy and the lower leagues and build a club and a side that we can all be proud of and feel that it achieves whatever it achieves on merit and through operating in a sensible and sustainable manner. That way if we do reach the Premiership we have arrived and will stay there based on the efforts of everyone involved rather than the wallet of one person who can remove their patronage at any time. But will it ever happen.....?    Report

08/10/2008, 12:43 PM CT feels helpless :( Joined on 21/02/2006 cambridge Posts 4,207 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  National express super guard wrote: a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. lmao Can we get a manager on loan? :D    Report

08/10/2008, 1:57 PM Shack Attack Joined on 11/08/2005 Making a fool of Terry Butcher Posts 1,724 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  C T wants the board out wrote:  National express super guard wrote: a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. lmao Rather than lmao-ing CT why not read Yankee's post and give us your opinions on it On a separate note I believe we've been saved from impending financial doom now that our fearless leader has given the banks £500bn of our money to bail them out. All in order to save some of the wealthiest people in the country from the consequences of their investment decisions in the free market, that they have lectured politicians and the general public on for decades. And now if I go down to Lloyds to arrange a mortgage to buy a house they can lend me my own money back and charge me interest for the privelege "The ball is round. The game lasts ninety minutes. This much is fact. Everything else is pure theory."    Report

08/10/2008, 2:59 PM Potless Percy Joined on 05/10/2005 attleborough Posts 3,097 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  Shack Attack wrote:  C T wants the board out wrote:  National express super guard wrote: a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. lmao Rather than lmao-ing CT why not read Yankee's post and give us your opinions on it I'll save you the trouble.  Yankee's post is a thinly disguised excuse to have a go at certain posters he doesn't agree with. Variation on the same old theme in other words.      Report

08/10/2008, 3:11 PM nutty nigel Joined on 27/08/2006 "Yeah, Marbles, rumoured by you, you mean!" Posts 5,003 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  Potless Percy wrote:  Shack Attack wrote:  C T wants the board out wrote:  National express super guard wrote: a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. lmao Rather than lmao-ing CT why not read Yankee's post and give us your opinions on it I'll save you the trouble.  Yankee's post is a thinly disguised excuse to have a go at certain posters he doesn't agree with. Variation on the same old theme in other words.   But Yankees post is about a current news item  Potty..   Big Up to DIXMAR RACING who sponsor the Pink 'n Posters Picks! Check them out 01603 424936. Join in the Free Bet Thread each week to raise more money for The Academy.    Report

08/10/2008, 3:15 PM Shack Attack Joined on 11/08/2005 Making a fool of Terry Butcher Posts 1,724 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  Potless Percy wrote: I'll save you the trouble.  Yankee's post is a thinly disguised excuse to have a go at certain posters he doesn't agree with. Variation on the same old theme in other words. You two really need to get a room I appreciate why it may have come across that way to some but I still think that he made a couple of decent points. It certainly deserved more than the standard "he he aren't Americans stooopid" riposte. "The ball is round. The game lasts ninety minutes. This much is fact. Everything else is pure theory."    Report

08/10/2008, 3:16 PM Potless Percy Joined on 05/10/2005 attleborough Posts 3,097 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance  knitting nancy wrote:  Potless Percy wrote:  Shack Attack wrote:  C T wants the board out wrote:  National express super guard wrote: a lecture on financial matters from america. oh the irony. lmao Rather than lmao-ing CT why not read Yankee's post and give us your opinions on it I'll save you the trouble.  Yankee's post is a thinly disguised excuse to have a go at certain posters he doesn't agree with. Variation on the same old theme in other words.   But Yankees post is about a current news item  Potty.. Read the thread title and the concluding paragraph of the OP Nitty . . .      Report

08/10/2008, 3:21 PM Bobert Joined on 31/07/2004 Perth, Western Australia Posts 255 Re: Norwich Financial Issue May Pale Into Insignificance The figure of 4.000 imigrants a day comes from the International Edition of the Daily Express that was published in Western Australia yesterday (Tuesday). It quotes the National Statistics Office as saying that 1,437,000 migrants arrived in the twelve months to June 2006 which is equivalent to 3,937 people arriving each day.These are short term migrants who stay for less than 12 months. Deus spes nostra    Report

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